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Roger Ver and Richard Heart Bitcoin debate.
Aug 25, 2017
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55:38
run businesses actually hold a lot
55:40
listening write a lot less censorship a
55:43
lot more good things going on a lot more
55:46
positivity I like Twitter a lot better
55:48
than I like our Bitcoin and I like our
55:51
Bitcoin a lot more than I like our BTC
55:54
because your guys problem isn't a
55:56
moderation problem
55:58
it's a tragedy free speech problem if
56:04
you I've done this a couple days now you
56:07
guys are 25% pro Bitcoin cash for a
56:13
subreddit called BTC so you're Miss
56:17
titled the subreddit now you need to
56:18
change the name to be accurate you
56:20
falsely advertised on reddit and I click
56:22
these links that are clicked beatty
56:23
links and they don't take me to the
56:25
article that's advertised they just drop
56:27
me in the main sub reddit thread and you
56:29
have pseudonymous effective moderation
56:33
through the fanboys that downvote things
56:37
so far down that no one ever needs to
56:39
moderate them out of vision because the
56:42
fanboys do it for you so maybe that are
56:46
participating there yeah but you can
56:48
look you can grow a garden of weeds and
56:50
then you can say you know what like we
56:52
never have to protect our roses here
56:54
because we don't have any it's all weeds
56:56
and that's what our BTC is I dare you
56:59
today to go to our BTC
57:03
categorize each post something like 7%
57:07
is anti Bitcoin core 25% is Bitcoin cash
57:12
10% is BCC another like 6% is BCH and
57:18
there's nothing about Bitcoin on the our
57:20
BTC forum
57:21
there's nothing about hey this person
57:23
adopts it's there's nothing about hey
57:25
how can I program this wallet there's
57:26
not a single good thing to be found in
57:28
that place
57:29
maybe richer because everyone that's
57:31
been censored has moved there and you
57:33
guys don't have to force it to be able
57:35
through moderation it's just emergently
57:37
evil but I'm telling you it's bad
57:40
so if you don't enjoy the the
57:42
conversation that's going on on rbtc
57:44
then don't participate it's that simple
57:46
nobody's being forced to participate in
57:48
that one and I I'm not very sympathetic
57:50
to the criticism that allowing too much
57:52
free speech is bad thing but it's not
57:54
free this downvote button and you just
57:56
have the emergent you have still there
58:00
if you know the percentage of people
58:02
that hit page down on a website you lose
58:04
something like 50 percent plus every
58:06
time you have to a page down so I don't
58:08
know about other people but for myself
58:10
personally I love reading the posts that
58:12
get the most that have been collapsed
58:14
because of the downloads usually those
58:15
the ones that I always click to
58:16
uncollapse and I think oh wow this
58:18
person really did this about a lot of
58:20
times I my mission isn't to like trash
58:23
talk you I actually have solutions to
58:25
offer if you believe censorship is bad
58:28
because it starves people of the ability
58:30
to make good decisions because they're
58:32
starved of data then it is important to
58:35
one not moderate incorrectly which
58:37
apparently you already have covered
58:39
congratulations
58:40
I like that but - you have to an account
58:43
for fanboy ism and extremism and mob
58:47
mentality and you have to maintain the
58:49
quality of your ecosystem by promoting
58:51
things that are alternative points of
58:53
view that kind of were anti the reason
58:56
you started the whole thing in the
58:57
beginning because for people to make
58:59
good decisions they need to see both
59:00
sides in an art Bitcoin they don't see
59:03
the big blocker side and on rbtc all
59:06
they see is censorship anti core and bch
59:10
that's it and that's not healthy filter
59:13
incredibly important topics to the
59:15
bitcoin so we have a group of people
59:16
that have come into Bitcoin that have
59:18
engaged in this giant censorship
59:20
campaign to promote censorship resistant
59:23
currency and I simply don't trust
59:24
anybody that engages in censorship to
59:26
maintain Bitcoin as the censorship
59:28
resistant network and I think you and I
59:29
both view decentralization as the tool
59:32
to achieve censorship resistance and
59:35
with Bitcoin the goal the end goal is
59:36
censorship resistance and the
59:38
decentralization is simply the tool to
59:40
achieve that goal
59:41
and if this guy famous is going around
59:43
on this big giant censorship campaign to
59:46
promote what's supposed to be censorship
59:47
resistant currency I don't trust that
59:50
guy as far as I can throw them if he's
59:51
willing to engage in since radius
59:53
yeah he's not gonna protect Bitcoin of
59:54
censorship resistance the small amount
59:56
of defense that I will give him is that
00:59:59
if you want to read about altcoins boo
01:00:01
boy you can read about all the points
01:00:02
all the all coins you want on the
01:00:04
Bitcoin talk form so they didn't he
01:00:07
didn't perform the censorship there that
01:00:10
he does perform on our sub section on
01:00:13
our Bitcoin or I'm sorry on Bitcoin talk
01:00:15
tour it's been a while since I believe
01:00:18
every single
ICO
launch goes there first
01:00:22
every altcoin launch goes there first so
01:00:24
they're not performing that censorship
01:00:26
across that whole domain they are
01:00:28
performing it across our Bitcoin but you
01:00:30
know what if you're tired of seeing
01:00:32
people get scammed and you're tired of
01:00:34
people see and lose millions of dollars
01:00:35
in alt coins they're too stupid to
01:00:38
understand large arguments if someone
01:00:40
goes to our Bitcoin they really should
01:00:42
not be reading about alts and you know I
01:00:44
don't see a lot of aetherium posts on
01:00:45
your subreddit so you do perform
01:00:48
moderation there no we are mot logs are
01:00:51
open you can see anybody can post a post
01:00:53
about a theory even if people want to
01:00:54
vote it and talk about it it'll stay
01:00:56
there and you know sorry I I thought
01:00:59
that like every other forum you guys
01:01:01
would try and restrict it to the title
01:01:03
of the forum and the roles most forums
01:01:05
do if you guys haven't been attacked by
01:01:07
shills for other currencies yet maybe
01:01:10
this is a bad conversation for us to
01:01:12
have had because they're gonna go test
01:01:13
that now every other crazy chill okay
01:01:17
can upvote or downvote did you see fit
01:01:21
alright so i just want to warn you that
01:01:24
at some point you become the evil you're
01:01:25
trying to destroy you own Bitcoin comm
01:01:28
you mod our BTC you're on television all
01:01:31
the time you're you're hiring devs to do
01:01:35
side deals you're running your own
01:01:36
conferences that have a subsection of
01:01:39
people that has done weird things so I
01:01:42
think if we can stop a little bit I
01:01:43
think your straw Manning me a little bit
01:01:45
so you can go to the forum Bitcoin calm
01:01:47
and you'll cuz you can see that there's
01:01:49
posts over there from I forget what his
01:01:52
screen name is over there but he's
01:01:53
saying all sorts of nasty rotten things
01:01:55
about me and claiming that I'm you know
01:01:57
G Hans little puppet and this and that
01:01:58
and like his his posts are allowed to
01:02:01
say his posts are still there I don't
01:02:02
tell my post the message that no I'm
01:02:05
saying your risk
01:02:06
that's all I'm saying saying that I'm
01:02:08
anybody that's the owner of a big
01:02:10
popular website is a risk that I can't
01:02:12
but just but a lot of quite I mean
01:02:14
you're in my tank on gets millions of
01:02:16
unique visitors per week I could go
01:02:18
rogue like famous has already done and
01:02:20
and has been a bad actor for years now
01:02:22
and so I hear you complaining that I
01:02:24
might do something bad in the future
01:02:29
just start a foundation and let it be
01:02:31
someone else the problem that's what
01:02:33
Wikimedia did with wick yeah I donated I
01:02:35
think it was like 8,000 bitcoins total
01:02:38
to the Bitcoin foundation and that
01:02:39
didn't work out so well no no you get to
01:02:41
choose the directors man like you get to
01:02:43
choose the first guys like I'm just
01:02:45
saying if you don't like centralization
01:02:47
and you feel it's a risk to the
01:02:48
ecosystem and you don't like with mes is
01:02:50
done and he might have turned out to be
01:02:51
you know a great guy way back when and
01:02:53
the power corrupted him I'm just telling
01:02:55
you to be on the lookout for it because
01:02:56
at some point your bubble is gonna get
01:02:58
smaller and you're not gonna listen to
01:02:59
as many people and then no one's gonna
01:03:01
tell you hey you know look what's going
01:03:03
on so it's fair advice so I have a
01:03:05
question for you though yeah I I hear
01:03:08
quite a bit of hate for altcoins from
01:03:09
you or it seems like you're not afraid
01:03:11
of any altcoin ever and you um so I'll
01:03:14
give you my stance tonight I'd like to
01:03:15
hear why you think I'm wrong so in in
01:03:20
life it's good to have more options so
01:03:22
in the crypto coin ecosystem people can
01:03:23
choose between you know Bitcoin and
01:03:25
Bitcoin cash in a theorem and Manero and
01:03:27
- and take your pick there's a thousand
01:03:29
one all coins out there
01:03:30
most people just choose one or two and
01:03:33
shape-shift io makes it easy to convert
01:03:35
from one to another but people have the
01:03:38
option of choosing the one that's the
01:03:39
most useful to them in their daily life
01:03:41
what's wrong with people having the
01:03:43
ability to choose which coins they want
01:03:45
to use in their daily lives so this is
01:03:49
the Darwinist argument Darwinism and
01:03:51
survival of the fitness and trying new
01:03:53
things and mutation and you know it
01:03:56
works awesome when you've got an
01:03:58
infinite energy pool and you don't mind
01:04:00
all the experiments that went wrong
01:04:02
the problem with finance economics and
01:04:05
human emotions are that those poor sons
01:04:08
of that chose wrong because no
01:04:10
one has enough time to learn about every
01:04:12
alt even me and I sit around a lot it
01:04:16
means that a lot of people are going to
01:04:17
be ground up into the meat grinder
01:04:20
for the experiment of hey maybe this
01:04:22
works a little bit better and so
01:04:24
delivered what is the option it's very
01:04:27
simple the libertarian argument always
01:04:30
is this locally works very good for me
01:04:33
and so I want to take what locally works
01:04:35
very good for me and educated thinking
01:04:37
individual thinker and now I want to
01:04:40
give that same power to the masses of
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